
NOTE: A lot of effort went in to some comments from a certain R2D2 (who will soon have his or her own blog I am very sure), so I've decided to bump this posting up to the top again to give folk a chance to read it. Apologies to any regular readers (note the hesitancy there actually arer any) who are sick of this one already. I think it's kind of nice to actually debate the union rather than skirt around it like some...
I've decided to prepare (as much as one can in 40 minutes) a positive argument in favour of staying within the union, since Jack, Nicol and Annabel were only able to give us negative rebuttals such as:
"We will listen, but we fear this will be less of a conversation than a one-way megaphone."
"The SNP is squandering taxpayers' money in pursuit of their own narrow and failed agenda."
"Alex Salmond's pet project of independence"
My four main reasons for not yet being convinced of the merits of Independence are:
Economies of Scale – Britain (244,820 sq km) is bigger than Scotland (78,783 sq km). Not just in terms of land mass but also in terms of economic and global might.
Much in the same way as America would have more bargaining power than Arkansas on a global platform. Scotland has a stronger voice inside the UK as opposed to outside of it with regard to international conflict, trade agreements and climate change treaties to name but three areas.
Clipping our own wings would be detrimental to a very successful Foreign Office, Army and UK Cabinet as a whole. The cream of British talent at the Westminster table has a synergy that would always outscore the combined cocktail involving the whisky cream of Scottish talent and the sour cream of English talent (couldn't resist, *laugh*).
Also Scotland and England+Wales+NI would pay two separate lots of "overhead costs"; paying twice for administration of government systems, politicians and bureaucracy not to mention set up costs for new frameworks and processes after Scotland won her independence. Much like when a couple go their separate ways the two mortgages, the two sets of TV licenses, the separate dinners and the separate travel costs all make it harder to get along financially, regardless of how free the heart feels.
Grossing this up to the national scale for Mr and Mrs Britain would apply similarly. Britain makes great savings in pooling so many of her resources.
Mitigating Risks – Britain has a highly diverse group of regions offering its own contribution to the UK pot. Scotland, of course, has oil which is highly lucrative and has contributed to the British coffers for generations. We also have a strong financial sector in Edinburgh (5th biggest financial sector in Europe). We export well known brands around the world, the whisky trade recently went past the 1bn bottles exported mark with a £2.5bn trade, a quarter of all UK food and drink exported. Tourism, too, is on the up and up within Scotland.
All great reasons for Scotland to be independent one may argue but the overbearing risk is that Scotland's route to financial strength is too narrow. Relying primarily on oil, whisky and tourism is inherently risky and with the UK as a whole able to provide an altogether larger and more varied manufacturing and financial sector might and more diversification in other areas of the markets that Scotland doesn't contribute to, Scotland will be less liable to take hits from falling oil reserves/prices, less international travel and cuts on importing luxury items in foreign lands. All very real risks in the 21st century.
Dependency culture - Scotland still has a dangerously unhealthy reliance on public money to prop up failing areas of our society. The comparison to the Eastern bloc countries in this regard doesn't seem to be going away and with the value of Sterling sitting at such a high level, Scotland requires to be as lean and mean as possible to make independence work. Within the Union, there is less uncertainty and therefore less of a risk that the Scots relying on the state for handouts or jobs will financially pull us under. Not enough entrepreneurs and not enough people pulling their weight would, in my view, be too heavy a millstone at this stage to carry alone.
While Scotland languishes bottom of the league of small European nations, we surely are not healthy enough to be successful. We shouldn't be independent in order to be healthy, we should be healthy before we become independent. Our diet, our levels of exercise, our reading and writing rates and our aspirations need to be in good form at the best of times to be a successful nation, but they need to be firing on all cylinders before we can successfully be independent without the UK safety net.
Passports at the Borders - It is much more sensible to live on an island where one can travel freely from country to country. To have to be stopped at checkpoints on the A1 and M74 and fish around for your passport would be immensely frustrating and no doubt would dissuade our English brothers and sisters coming north to see us as often as they currently do. I have family in England and it would be horrible if something as silly as Scottish Independence was the reason we lost touch.
Conclusion
Scotland can be independent, absolutely, and in my heart of hearts I think we should be. We're just not prepared yet, physically or mentally, and as things stand it'd be a safer, savvy and more sensible option to stay within the UK and focus on playing our part to as full a level as possible. If we are then able to punch our way into a position where the undoubted benefits of independence exceed the benefits of the union as set out above, then we should grasp the thistle and go for it.
But an intriguing paradox is this:
The more Alex Salmond and the SNP succeed in improving Scotland and shaping it into the healthy, dynamic nation it needs to be for independence to work, the more comfortable people will be with their lot and the less they will want to say "Yes" to any referendum put before them.
So, as things stand, I'll be voting "no" if this white paper somehow makes it through to an actual referendum. Does anyone care to disagree with me? Or back me up?
(OK, I put the Passport/Border guff in for a joke and also so certain people could get that sweet puff of self-righteous annoyance for a second or two when they thought I was being a prat. But the other 3 arguments still apply for me as things stand. But only just.)
8 comments:
Hi Jeff,
I'll happily disagree with you, hope you don't mind too much. I'll address each of your points in turn.
(1) Economies of Scale.
Economies of Scale still incur cost and as any businessman will tell you, are only worthwhile if you accrue the end benefits from them. So you have to compare costs with benefits to see if they are actually really effective economies. And for many things attached to the Union, I don't think they are.
We'll just have to agree to disagree that Scotland has a stronger voice in the world, given our position both in the UK and wider world. I have to say in all seriousness, it is an argument I have absolutely no time for, given that Scotland is invisible in the wider global community, and our collective influence in Britain is negligable. Yeah Gordon Brown might be PM, be he isn't really governing Scotland alone.
As for defence, foreign affairs and the army. Scotland does pay its share for these things already. So there are already apportioned separate overhead costs - albeit estimated ones. The difference being that with these apportioned costs, a Scottish Government would be able to allocate them in the way they want to - not by having their policies decided elsewhere. For example would Scotland need an embassy in every country - especially when you can get consular assistance at any EU embassy these days? I don't think it would. Would we need Class II destroyers patrolling our waters? Would we need to contribute to a Nuclear weapons system?
As for the cost of setting these things up - the Mr and Mrs Britain analogy is a good one. What happens in the divorce? The assets get split. Ok they won't be halved as Scotland is only about 9% of the population, but we'd be entitled to our pro-rata share of shared UK capital and assets. This can either be done by splitting the physical capital proportionally or providing financial compensation. Scotland can use these proceeds to set up their own versions of such services - but importantly do it in the way that most suits than, and is financially affordable and viable.
So lets come back to the economies of scale analogy and take an example. The Foreign Office. Do you really think the Foreign Office works in Scotland's interest? How much does Scotland pay for its share of FO services (I think its about £450m pa, according to GERS - I think) and how much direct benefit of the FO's services have been ploughed back into Scotland as investment? I don't think there would be a significant net benefit to Scotland if we were to apply such reduction here. Look at Ireland. They have a much smaller foreign diplomatic network than the UK. But they spread and use their diplomats effectively and use their resources as a showcase for Ireland. As is normal in the diplomatic community, they in their own right have the ears of some of the world biggest and best industrialists and businessmen in all forums. Economically it is a boon - and it shows what a wee bit of national ambition can do. Is there a net benefit here? You bet there is. Scotland can only dream.
(2) Mitigating Risk.
You suggest that many sectors of Scotland's economy are doing well (and they are), but our economic base is too narrow to go it alone, at the moment (ie there is not enough diversification in our economy) We clearly have more to offer than oil, whisky and tourism (as important that they are). What about financial services, global backroom operations, Energy (especially non renewables - a huge area for potential expansion) and life sciences? These are all high value added components of our economy. We are far more diversified now than we were in the 1970s and 1980s, where our primary economic concern was manufacturing, and little else.
As for the UK and larger countries able to provide a larger and more varied financial environment, that is no doubt true, but we can and need to compete. The US, Germany and China provide a larger more varied environment that the UK (as a whole does) doesn't stop us, or anywhere else from competing and contributing. I'd argue that
Supposing there was a negative shock to the economy that disproportionately affected one of Scotland's main economic drivers - like Whisky for example. How would the effects differ if Scotland were in the Union vis a vis, Scotland being independent.
I don't believe there would be much difference. What exactly could the rest of the UK do? Provide subsidies and subvention? Would that help? I very much doubt it. What happened with deindustrialisation in Scotland (bearing in mind Scotland was in the Union)? We still went through a great deal of pain and adjustment. If we were independent, it would no doubt have been the same. Given that Scotland is far more diversified now than it was then, it only underlines the idea that perhaps it is the Union which prevents the necessary speedy adjustment required to cope with changing economic conditions. At least a smaller country, with a government in possession of the full range of economic powers would have far more incentive to modernise, diversify (if necessary) and get it sorted!!!
(2) Public Sector dependency
On the face of it, it seems bad. But in reality the various measures of public sector dependency are not hugely bad. For example, the number of people employed by the state in Scotland is at near equivalence with the corresponding figure in England. The level of economic inactivity and benefit dependency is higher in many parts of the rest of the UK than it is in Scotland. I'm not excusing public sector dependency (it is still too high) but I don't think in any way precludes independence.
And anyway how can we eliminate public sector dependency - or unnecessary dependency of any kind, when we argue that our country should be dependent on the United Kingdom? I don't see that as being logically consistent. I'd argue the only route to self sufficiency for the individual is self sufficiency from the state. The only route to a lean and mean Scotland, is for the Scottish Government to be in control of ALL of Scotland's finances and to appropriate them accordingly.
Not many entrepreneurs is a good point. We need more. We need more Venture Capital funds - and that is something that doesn't really need independence. It would need some of our banks and institutions to work together for some national interest. We, sadly, have two Banks in Scotland, with Scotland in the title, who show absolutely no interest in trying to help achieve such an objective.
The point about health and independence is spurious. People's health is a matter for them. It is not for the state to nanny people into being healthy.
Anyhow I hope I don't sound "off" in that analysis above. I don't mean to.
Cheers
My word. I was hoping someone would give me an intelligent rebuttal. You've absolutely pounded me with sensible chat and clever arguments.
Not got time to read it all let alone reply, but much appreciated. I'll try to hit back soon even if I'm clearly less "in the know" than your good self, maybe someone can step in for me while I watch some Korean breakdancing.....? (got to love the festival)
Incidentally R2D2, with all these insightful comments on various websites, isn't it about time you set up a blog? ;)
Well, I'll try and defend my position, could be on a hiding to nothing, especially as I am anything but "staunch" in my views but we'll see:
Economies of Scale -
You say Scotland is invisible in the wider global community. I think we do alright; as I say, tourism and whisky sales are breaking records and how many cultural links do we have with US, Canada, Australia, large parts of Asia etc etc. Our universities are reknowned around the world and our football team, ok, I won't go there but still, I think for a country of 5 million, we've got pretty good coverage.
And I don't fully understand just what sort of voice you want Scotland to have on the global stage? I liken the idea that Scotland has a right to comment as much as Lincolnshire and Gloucestshire might do.
And what if Scotland was to be independent and suddenly Blairgowrie wanted to have a separate say on how they conducted their affairs?
I'm being a bit facetious but borders are useful for deciding how things get done. Make them too local and you just get too many big fish in little ponds, but make them too large (federal State of Europe anyone?) and you're varied opinions are spread too thinly.
There is an optimum size of a nation where you get a significant say on the issues of the day and are still small enough to manage the nation effectively. In my view that optimum level is around the 50-60million people mark and the British borders.
With regard the army, you suggest that Scotland allocating resources our way would be advantageous. Again, taking a British viewpoint as a whole, i believe that pooling resources and taking a combined approach has more benefits than England and Scotland working together but separately.
Your arguments on saving money on Class 2 destroyers and nuclear weapons are good ones. We'd save bucketloads in that regard through independence. Scottish Labour's wimpish and slavish obedience of their London masters in previous years has been embarrassing with regard to nuclear weapons and the Iraq War.
I find the argument that we can just get assistance at an EU consul around the world intriguing. Surely Scottish interests being diluted at a British level is nothing compared to our interests being diluted at a European level?
If I have a serious issue in a foreign country; I want to know there is someone I can go and see and they'll help me quickly.
With the EU consul/embassy approach, ok, there is always access but how long is the queue? How much time will they really have for me?
A British approach, always there for you, more experience with and knowledge of specific British issues and arguably a quicker and more effective response time.
A Scottish approach? Might not even have a consul/embassy in whatever country I happen to be in.
I get what you're saying about us getting 9% of the UK assets. We could use the money to set things up our way. But again, taking a British view: why have two lots of HMR&C, DVLA, Home Office, FSA etc on the same island? Is Scotland's approach to such things really so markedly different that we need to rip them up and start again? I'm not convinced.
Your foreign office argument and comparison with Ireland. About how Irish interests are best served with a tailor-made bunch of Irish diplomats. For now, I think I'd agree with you, Scotland would benefit from an independent FO in many regards.
I do however think that the British FO does a cracking job from a global viewpoint (ignoring the somewhat justifiable selfish Scottish approach for a second). So to break that up would be disappointing.
My argument about oil and whisky is one you challenged, particularly if (for example) there was some sort of whisky disaster. Diageo's whisk management let them down perhaps (*boom boom*).
Anyway, I believe Scotland would be more badly hit as whisky makes up a higher percentage of our national income than it does in Britian as a whole.
And also, assuming the effects of "deindustrialisation" were worse in Scotland than they were in England then there is no douobt that fiscally an independent Scotland would have suffered more as a result.
The UK has many more income streams and from a wider variety of sources. This can only be a good thing in terms of risk management. Not that I foresee any big Scottish business shocks anytime soon but you never know...
But you're right, Scotland is more diverse than I had originally painted. Life sciences and energy were good additions. And having 2 of the top 10/20 (?) banks in Scotland is delightfully preposterous.
My argument may well be overly cautious.
I don't think my point about health is spurious at all. I'm not advocating a "nanny state" but the simple fact is that Scotland is the sick man of Europe and consequently a financial, emotional and aesthetic burden is placed on all of our shoulders.
Scotland being independent carries costs. Having to pay more per person in Scotland for the NHS than we would in the UK is something I would deeply grudge, particularly when the majority of the costs relate to poor diet, smoking, drinking , drugs etc; all problems that I am perfectly safe from with my well-taught "just say no" attitude. These problems that affect so many Scots are solvable if people got their act together a bit more. (I know it's not that simple in many cases and I'm extremely lucky not to be afflicted, but my argument remains)
The lazy attitude in the mind is linked to the unhealthy state of the body. And I just think, at this moment in time, there are too many individuals and families taking more from the state than they are giving back and if Scotland is to work, the majority of us need to be net contributors.
So without entrepreneurs and venture capital coming through, and no end in sight for our collective poor health, I don't see Scottish independence at this time being able to work as effectively as it should. The mindset of too many people needs to change to the optimistic, enthusiastic approach you hold yourself R2D2.
If there was more involvement in sport, a healthier diet and an aggressively entrepreneurial spirit across Scots, without any significant impetus from the Government, then I'd be much closer to being sold on independence.
Are Norway/Ireland/Sweden successful nations because their people have always been healthy and ambitious? Or did it take independence to whip them into shape? I would have to say it's the first one and currently Scotland has lost its dynamism.
We need our mojo before we can go solo ;)
Hi again
[EDIT: Sorry for getting carried away :-)]
(1) Global Affairs
My point about being invisible on the global stage was to do with the grown up decisions and grown up debates that take place in international fora, like the United Nations, where countries like Kiribati, St Vincent and the Grenadines and Luxembourg have a vote and have a voice. They have an opinion and a body within which to voice it. You make liken the right that Scotland has to comment on the international stage to that of Licolnshire or Gloucestershire (who are no doubt very happy to be part of England), but Scotland is a nation, a country and recognised as such Lincolnshire, Gloucestershire and Blairgowrie aren't.
Why is the optimum size of a nation to comment, significantly, on international affairs 50 to 60 million people? I don't believe it is. The UK has a position on the Security Council (and thus unwieldly power on the international stage for its size and stature)is not because it is anywhere near the league of the US or China, but generally it has that position, at the sufferance of other countries in the world. Imposing such , however arbitrary, stringency would exclude half the population of the world a voice on global affairs.
Can you honestly compare the role Ireland has in global affairs to Scotland? Ireland, with its smaller population, holds the rotating presidency of the EU from time to time; has a larger number of MEPs; has EU commissioners; has a place on the European Council; has direct representation in the UN General Assembly (and on the Security Council from time to time); and has distinct representation on dozens of other bodies. Scotland just can't compare with that.
I could also retort, than on any measure of success the optimum country size is between 5 to 10 million people (based on Europe), but I won't because such a thing doesn't exist. The world is extremely varied. Countries and nations are extremely varied.
My point about EU consular assistance, wasn't well made. My point was that if you have a problem with a passport or any other consular problem, you can go to the High Commission of another member state, and they'll help you as an EU citizen – so there wouldn't be any more queueing required than if you turned up at a UK High Commission as a UK national. It wasn't really anything to do with the “national interest”, as that kind of thing isn't much to do with the national interest. As a result there wouldn't need to be a Scottish Embassy in every country (as a way of cutting cost). Alternatively what a Scottish Department of Foreign Affairs could organise foreign representation is by grouping countries together, so that there is consular representation for every country, but is based in a central location in a central country. That's generally what smaller countries do, and it is cost effective.
(2) Economic Issues
My point on the issue of economic diversification might not be something you grasped - but I think, I didn't put it across that well. My issue was that if there was a downturn in the Whisky industry, then it would hit Scotland hard irrespective of whether we are in the Union or not. What do you expect the rest of the Union to do for us, if there was such a downturn in the Whisky industry whilst we are part of the UK? Subsidise us? Do you think that would be sustainable - given some of your later comments about dependency? Do you not think such action, and being strap belted to the rest of the union, actually hinders the necessary economic readjustment, thus making the economic "pain" of such an event more drawn out, and more painful in the long term? I certainly do.
Let's take an analogous example. What if the financial markets suffered a big downturn? Would that not affect England/London/SE UK more than it would Scotland - given that this is the main area where the UK makes a lot of its money from? Of course it would, Defence and Arms industries is another big area (explaining why the UK corruption investigation into arms sales, was halted by the Government). Big countries like small countries have to ride the global markets, their larger size, in no way protects them from global forces – neither does it lessen the effects of disproportionate macroeconomic shocks.
If we take it proportionally, I'm not necessarily sure that UK has "more" income streams than Scotland (and I am talking proportionally), just that those income streams, which it does have, are much bigger. And that isn't necessarily a good thing. Smaller countries, obviously do have their economic limitations, but are much more able to respond to their intrinsic needs and smaller countries do adapt quicker. A rudderless branch economy, like Scotland has no such luxury.
(3) Defence and Assets
You argue that Scotland should pool resources, in terms of defence, with the rest of the UK - but agree it is wasteful that we should have to contribute to nukes and other associated armoury. There's two things I'd say to this. Firstly, this is exactly what happens when you pool resources in the manner we currently do, the money we spend on such things certainly could be diverted to more compelling investments. How does this British approach benefit Scotland? I'm struggling to see how. Secondly it is not beyond the ability of an independent Scotland and England to pool resources and share expertise, with respect to defence, with both governments co-operating closely where it is in their interest (and budget!) to do so. The only difference to that situation is that an independent Scotland would be able to weigh the costs and benefits of its integration, without others deciding for us – which is exactly Scotland's position in the Union now, with less than 9% of representation in defence issues.
As for having a separate DVLA or Home Office or whatever on the, I can't really see the problem with that. As I said before, how does duplication matter, when costs are going to be the same, but policy objectives may be different – an inherent failure of the United Kingdom? What I mean by that is that Scotland is not benefiting from an economy of scale. Indeed why stop at bodies like the DVLA or the Home Office. Why not rescind the independence and distinctiveness of Scottish agencies like Historic Scotland, Scottish Water? If driver and vehicle licencing is something that shouldn't be separated, why should historical conservation? I'm pretty sure that the UK could probably cope with one historical conservation agency across its land mass. The same with education? Do we really need two education systems on this island? When you start making arguments about what we should share, then you can't really stop. Surely it would be more cost effective for Scotland to share its education system with England – no need for the SQA or a separate school inspection agency? The point is, that Scotland can use the resources it already has to give up to pay for these agencies, to allocate them in a more efficient way, suitable for its needs.
(4) State Dependency
You make some good points on the state. I don't necessarily think it is as bad as you make out, but there certainly are problems and I certainly don't think any of it precludes independence, indeed, I quite honestly think a lot of the problems we have with respect to the public sector is exactly because Scotland does not have anything near the level of control over its affairs (especially economic). Scotland is a branch economy, and has been run as a regional economy, since the inception of the Union, without at least total fiscal independence, this is likely to be the case.
It all harks back to the point I made before; “How on earth can we eliminate public sector dependency - or unnecessary dependency of any kind, when we argue that our country should be dependent on the United Kingdom?” Which is pretty compelling.
I do think there needs to be more optimism in Scotland about our abilities, but then most of the conditions you attach to independence, are (let's be realistic about it) never going to happen in the current set up, where Scotland is disenfranchised as part of the union, with no responsibility for itself, or any effecting policy instruments to put that right. And you could argue that arguing for the retention of the Union is an intrinsic part of that lack of confidence in our abilities and dependency that Scotland could be doing without :-)
There's never going to be an optimum time for Scotland to become independent - and indeed it may even be out of our hands when it comes. I can imagine an analogous argument, if Scotland were rich, healthy, confident and successful – much more than it is now – a Unionist would pop up and say – we're too rich, healthy and successful to possibly consider independence. Independence would put that all at risk.
(5) Health
As for health being a determining factor with respect to independence, I fail to understand how. I don't believe Ireland has always been a healthy and ambitious country – it certainly wasn't back in the mid-80s and early 90s when it was a lost cause and an economic basket case. Independent Finland had a worse health record than Scotland in the 1980s and 1990s, but the government there made it priority number 1 to sort out (not the sort of interventionism I admire, right enough) and it worked.
Perhaps in Scotland's case, too much spending on health is a cause of the problems, not a solution to them – and could be reduced where appropriate? That would need a Scottish Government to grasp the nettle and slim down our nannying state health service. That doesn't require independence, but neither does it preclude it.
I do want a more entreprenuerial spirit in Scotland, but that can't happen without independence, or at least complete control over our finances – it ain't something that is gonna happen before either of these two states happen, so there isn't any point sitting round waiting on it happening in the current situation.
All in all, I fully understand and respect your viewpoint, but it is part of the problem, rather than the solution, because it still advocates that Scotland cannot take responsibility for itself, or all of its affairs, which is the prevailing line from the Unionist parties, especially Labour.
I hope that all doesn't sound too harsh. But thanks for letting me gatecrash your blog, I should get one of my own :-)
Crikey.
Won't reply to everything but cheers again for the standard and volume of debate. Not harsh of you at all (except maybe at the end, but I'll get to that). I am after all a fair-weather unionist and if I am in "the wrong" on whether Scotland should be independent then I am at least happy to play Devil's Advocate here and have my arguments picked apart by those with more to go on than I do.
And anyway, I have to admit that the mighty Smeaton's comment on the front page of The Scotsman that "Scotland would be screwed without England" kind of sticks in the throat.
By the way, if I don't answer a point you make, it probably just means I agree with you.
(1) Global affairs:
You say Kiribati has a voice. Fair enough, I don't deny Scotland would have a voice at the EU and UN. But what tangible benefits do Kiribati actually get from having their own voice? Would they be better off being part of a group of other Kiribati's and having a combined voice? Scotland and England, pooling talent on the global stage is better than the two working separately. That's just my personal belief at this time.
Then again, your comparison of Scotland and Ireland, number of MEPs, Security Council etc etc are all very strong points.
So if I had a problem with my passport I could go to the Slovakian embassy/consul/whatever and they'd help me out? Good stuff. I didn't know that. And my previous argument consequently falls down as a result.
(2) Economic Issues
OK, we're using the same words on this one but clearly not speaking the same language.
A worldwide downturn? Yes, Scotland would suffer just as much as it would if it was independent.
A whisky downturn? Scotland would certainly suffer more if it was independent. Take it to the extreme. What if there was a country that only sold umbrellas and then it didn't rain for two years. The country would be ruined. Who would help them out? As part of the UK, we share in all of the wealth that is created and that will always help to mitigate specific market risks. It's not so much being subsidised as just simply the make up of the UK and the Treasury and the Barnett formula etc.
"A rudderless brach economy". Good phrase. I admit there are fiscal tools and key decisions that could be used and taken at a Scottish level that would help us enormously. I am completely unable to quantify what the benefit would be and, to be fair, the benefits could quite easily outweigh the downsides of leaving the large British pool of income that is generated each year.
(3) Defence and Assets
I see nuclear weapons and the pooling of army resources as two separate issues. Maybe that's naive and I'm trying to move the goalposts but so be it.
I think two separate budgets for two separate armies on the same small island is a bit silly, especially as any time these two armies need to be used we'll be working with England anyway.
Surely a more cohesive and effective approach is to have joined-up thinking from the outset?
The only advantages to being independent as far as I can see is the ability to dump nuclear weapons and also the large cost savings we would enjoy. Cost savings potentially at the expense of world security I hasten to add. Let's not deny that the UK Army are at the forefront of international peacekeeping/anti-terrorism so any disruption to that Army would surely have a negative knock-on effect. How large an effect? Hard to say.
But if it's not broke, why fix it.
For DVLA amd Home Office (and the thousands of other similar organisations). Duplication does matter precisely because the same costs are invovled.
Two separate DVLAs as opposed to one, two seaparate Home Offices as opposed to one? On rent alone the costs would increase.
Your argument is that the benefits of these bodies being independent exceed the extra costs involved? Well, that is fair. I would only argue that there is only so much extra benefit a country can derive from a DVLA. Home Office? Ok, I'll give you that...
And I wouldn't be a fan of joining up Scottish and English education systems so maybe there is a timidity of change in my argument that I can't deny.
(4) State Dependency
I do agree with a lot of what you say. Aiming for independence would display a vision and vigour that Scotland has lacked for a while in many ways.
I said Scotland needs to get itself into shape before we can prove we can be independent. But I do have a lot of time for the argument that we "jumping" alone will take us half way there in terms of the modern, drynamic country I wish we were. And it's not that bad, I just have high standards ;)
I don't think your question (that you seemed very proud of “How on earth can we eliminate public sector dependency - or unnecessary dependency of any kind, when we argue that our country should be dependent on the United Kingdom?”
It's rather simple as they are two completely disparate issues. Scotland could be an entrepreneurial, forward-thinking, largely private sector country outside of the UK or inside of it. Makes no difference either way, the way I see it.
You've just seen the word "dependent" in both areas and then matches apples with pears.
I do agree that a rich, healthy Scotland is possibly even less likely to become indpendent. I am interested though (if you are still reading) from a purely political point of view, what characteristics would Scotland have to have to be perfectly ripe for an independence referendum from an SNP point of view? I've wondered about this before and all I can come up with is, if we got stuffed 5-0 by England on the Wednesday and had the referendum on the Thursday it would be a landslide. It would also work if we won 5-0 too of course ;)
(5) Health
You made my point for me about health. It wouldn't be too big a barrier. But we have a massive health bill and it would be a pain to spend the moneyh on health when, if people just got off their bums and ran more instead of eating junk, smoking and drinking, then we would have more money to use for constructive areas (schools, investment, enticing business, sport etc).
Last thing I would say is: you say my viewpoint is "part of the problem" rather than part of the solution. I take offence at that I'm afraid. It's part of YOUR problem, or the overall problem through your eyes.
The SNP are building momentum, of course, I'm delighted with how they have done. But to take that too far and kick out at the unionists unfairly for beliefs they are perfectly entitled to will set your agenda back. You need to show respect for the unionists standpoint in stark contrast to how most of the unionists have no respect for the nationalists.
You say my viewpoint is that Scotland cannot take care of its affairs. That is most definitely not my viewpoint. I think we can. I just think that as part of the UK we are even better off.
All in all though, if we had had this debate in front of wavering voters I daresay the majority would fall down on your side.
And therefore maybe it's pretty clear why the unionists are shunning the National Conversation. I'd love to be proved wrong by an independent Scotland if I am wrong in my union dividend beliefs, still not quite ready to vote yes despite your highly convincing arguments.
Hello again
A tiny bit briefer this time :-)
Global Issues
“But what tangible benefits do Kiribati actually get from having their own voice?”
Well, its their OWN voice, that's surely got to mean something? Would they be better pooling with 10 Kiribati's or similar sized countries, to project their own voice. I dare say they might be, with one extremely big caveat. That caveat is that those 10 Kiribati's or similar sized countries, had an identical opinion to the original Kiribati. That way the original Kiribati has its voice, undiluted and projected in way to its advantage. Brilliant, you might think. But what if those other countries have a different opinion, or a different view to the original Kiribati? They all need to find a common position, because they are pooling their voice. So they need to accommodate, and gradually original Kiribati's viewpoint becomes marginalised and diluted. Then it is not its own voice then, is it? “Pooled Kiribati” goes off to the United Nations, with an opinion, but it is vastly different from what original Kiribati might have wanted to say. You can magnify that situation if you have 1 country composed of 4 parts, where one of those parts is ten times bigger than the next part. Whose voice, opinion, do you think will dominate then? So why couldn't Scotland work within the international community to open dialogue with, and find countries (big, small whatever) who share the views of itself, instead of having a negotiating position imposed upon it, by virtue of its membership of the UK? I think on many, many affairs and issues Scotland and England have diverged. I'd go as far to say (and I know this is an extreme generalisation here, but one with a great deal of currency, I think) both countries do have an entirely different outlook on the world, and that as I see it, is pretty big.
Economic Issues
It really is about being subsidised, that is the only way the effects of risk are mitigated in these circumstances – by a transfer of wealth (which is effectively a subsidy with “no strings”). You agree that a global downturn would just as badly affect Scotland in the Union as outside it. The fact that we somehow share risk (which, in effect, we don't) and share wealth with the rest of the Union (we do) is the big difference. Would Scotland suffer more, in the short term, most probably. What could an independent Scotland do to mitigate the effects of this downturn – well it would do what every other country would do – it would borrow, from the global markets, international institutions and other countries. That borrowing constraint, is a very good kick up the backside to the country to make the necessary adjustments and restructuring it requires in the medium to long term to mitigate the effects of the downturn. I appreciate, this wouldn't be the case for the impoverished nations of the world, where debt is a problem, but we'd both agree that an independent Scotland would be a well developed economically advanced country/ democracy (whatever you want to call it). Scotland has a sophisticated electorate, who would rapidly boot out a government that did not make the necessary adjustments to bring the national prosperity back up the level which they are accustomed to. You could argue that Scotland could achieve this in the Union. Very unlikely unless it became completely fiscally and financially independent with its own budget constraint to effect such a position. You could say we could just borrow of England all the time. I'd just say that would be dependent on the same banker all the time. We'd have to shop around. All of this though, does have the corollary of lessening the fiscal, financial and other ties that supposedly enable us to share risk.
I think my point about dependency is still very much appropriate. Right now and given the centralised nature of the United Kingdom, Scotland is dependent on it. Dependent on it to provide our budget, dependent on it to take the grown up decisions for us - “war and peace”, treaty negotiations and even employment legislation. Moral issues like abortion and euthanasia are also reserved to Westminster. All the grown up decisions are reserved to Westminster. Someone else doing it for us, not because it makes sense, but because it is benign and far more easier for Scotland to have someone else make the big decisions for it. As for Scotland being a highly successful entrepreneurial part of the UK, in the UK, I honestly think it is extremely unlikely, not while we have the unfair advantage of many of the major institutions, that affect our country, located outside our country. It is no mistake that a such institutions act like as a conduit for investment. They also symbol the willingness of a country to take responsibility for itself. The UK is not constructed in a way to allow its extremities to flourish – and for them to do so, I think they would need so much autonomy that is just incompatible in the centralised state. The much easier way is to repatriate the powers and abilities to grow Scotland, to tackle its economic problems on its own. I'd much rather that, than some contorted plan to save a United Kingdom – that is basically breaking up anyway, albeit slowly at the moment.
Politically, a Conservative Government, at Westminster, I think would be a great boon, for those of us, wishing independence. Barring miracles, I don't see any Tory breakthrough, in Scotland, at the next General Election, where their vote will probably be squeezed by the SNP, who may be in contention for a few more Westminster seats. I think David Mundell would be extremely lucky to hold onto his seat in Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale. Any attempts by a Westminster Government to interfere, with the budget of the Scottish Parliament, will be dynamite. Whether that be amending the Barnett Formula, cutting Scotland's budget or any other interference with it, will produce a backlash in Scotland. Whether that leads to independence or Fiscal Autonomy remains to be seen (but I see both things as synonymous, even if others don't) I think any moves for an English Parliament, or English autonomy will be extremely helpful. I believe that is coming. I also believe that that is unsustainable with respect to the Union and will effectively neuter the whole concept. There has been some talk of federation, but that isn't going to work either, where one part of the federation will be as powerful as the whole country – it is obvious that that is a recipe for independence, even if a referendum isn't!
I certainly apologise for offending you, it certainly wasn't my intention. It was extremely flippant of me, but I think I have an understanding of your position much more clearly. Where we differ is on how we think Scotland will be. You suggest Scotland would do well as an independent country, but is better served in the Union. I suggest Scotland would do well as an independent country, but would do even better outside the Union. Whilst, I don't agree with the second part of your analysis, it is a far more honourable, decent and honest opinion than I've seen from some of the Unionist parties. If they had any sense at all, they would move onto the same ground as you occupy, thus elevating the whole constitutional debate into something that a mature democracy, like Scotland, should be having. Except they don't, which is why we get the doomsday nonsense, which only turns more fair minded Scots to independence.
Still no link to r2d2.blogspot.com, I'm highly disappointed.
I'm also happy to give you the last word so I'll keep this short.
Indeed your last point is the same one I'd like to leave this on. The longer the unionists avoid the debate and avoid championing the union dividend, the more predisposed I am to lack confidence in my own ham-fisted arguments.
So I can only agree, their doomsday nonsense is certainly turning this fair-minded voter to independence.
Perhaps by 2010, Alex's preferred date for the referendum, you (or Labour's poor arguments) will have turned a sufficient number around to have your wish.
Till then, I'll keep r2d2.blogspot.com in my favourites, just in case ;)
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