It seems the issue of politicians using public money to pay for poppies has reared its head again. The Edinburgh Evening News led the way summoning up as much outrage as it could get away with on a recent front page and Subrosa has charged in saying it's "a bad decision" and "thoughtless". Leg-iron thinks that MSPs claiming for poppy wreaths shows "there are no depths they will not plumb". Iain Dale even went as far as suggesting a while back that claiming for poppy wreaths means you should have the whip withdrawn.People still seem to enjoy being outraged for outrage's sake.
To say that MSPs earn £55+k and wreaths only cost £16 so they should pay for them themselves is completely missing the point. I'm sure the pens in an MSPs' office don't cost much either but they still deserve to be reclaimed on expenses as they are part and parcel of doing their job.
It seems the real reason for people taking exception is to do with what poppies represent but this misty-eyed patriotism is both mystifying and misguided.
A contest in who can out-patriot who to the detriment of sensible reasoning can only end badly.
We pay for MSPs to eat, for them to sleep, for them to warm themselves in their offices and even in some cases clothe themselves. Furthermore, we have injected £3,000 per household into struggling banks and we have a deficit of billions upon billions but it's the poppies that get some people in a lather.
When an MSP lays a wreath at a public ceremony they are there in an official capacity.
Consequently, any costs incurred should be paid for via the public purse as in any other similar situation. It really is as simple as that.
21 comments:
Flowers for employees for Death and Births are claimable in my company. I see this as a similar expense, especially, as they are laying the wreath on behalf of other people not just themselves.
The poppy you buy is a donation from you showing your support for this cause if your to tight fisted to donate anything don't expect someone else to pay it for you.
Jeff:
It may seem a little lacking in taste to say this, but the MSPs (and any other sort, MP, MEP, Peer) get some kudos for laying the wreath.
I don't suppose that anyone actually consciously thinks... "oh, that was good of him or her to lay the wreath... and pay for it.... so I must vote for him/her".... but at the back of their minds they associate the person with the "good" gesture.
I'm not suggesting for a second that any of them do it for the kudos. I accept that most of our elected representatives probably quite genuinely feel a personal desire to pay respects to the fallen, but it doesn't do them any harm when they are seen to do it. (There was an exception of course in Nigel, but we'll ignore him as he's likely to be going down.)
My point was that at around £16, we are not asking them to take out a second mortgage on their houses.
There are two possible solutions as I see it. Firstly the Scottish Parliament could purchase wreaths centrally and send staff out with MSPs. This would cost the taxpayer more in terms of staff hours but if people think it is important that the Scottish Parliament is represented at wreath laying ceremonies then they should not complain about the cost.
The second alternative is that MSPs simply stop going. If their attendence as representatives of the Scottish Parliament causes this much stramash maybe they should just not go at all.
What they should not do is back down to this complete and utter nonsense. They are not laying wreaths as individuals, they are laying them on behalf of the Scottish Parliament. The cost of the wreath (not poppies, which of course they pay for as we all do) is as valid an expense as any other and they should not give in to this type of stupid and illogical emotional blackmail by the media - who are the world's worst hypocrites incidentally when it comes to expenses!
Does anyone ask whether the Queen pays personally for the wreath she lays at the Cenotaph on Rememberance Sunday?
No. They don't.
This is just part and parcel of a general view that absolutely everything every elected politician does is wrong, by default.
Except of course, Indy, that they benefit in the public eye when they do it.
I shouldn't think that the Queen ever pays for anything herself douglas clark, but as we are not allowed any information about this as she and her family are excluded from FOI, we shall never know.
tris,
Ré politicians:
If they all do it, they all benefit equally, I'd have thought. Doesn't matter what political label you've got around your neck, does it? It becomes a zero sum game.
On the Queen thing, if someone asked the Lord Chaimberlains' Office they might just consider replying, mightn't they, y'know out of common courtesy? They are supposed to be quite big on that sort of thing.
The point being is that no-one is interested because she is wholly constitutional, whereas politicians are only partly constitutional. And flavour of the month for a good kicking.
I've seen it argued that a committee will pass a million pound bypass without a blink of an eye and argue about the price of staples. It seems to be a human thing to be unable to deal with large scale fraud, such as the second homes fiasco yet worry about something trivial.
Least, that's what I think.
Good stuff, bit of unanimity here, sort of (and I'm excluding Anon who doesn't know diff between poppy and wreath).
That was on my mind too Tris, that there is personal benefit in it. Not tasteless in my view but I can see how others could spin it that way. But there's personal benefit in everything they do in public roles. Should we pull the financial plug entirely? And I still don't think the price tag has anything to do with. If it's fair to claim at £1600 then it's fair to claim at £16. Hence why the Jacqui plug story was a bunch of nonsense.
MSPs could just not go to events (or just not lay wreaths) but I'm with Douglas, if the Queen can get away with it so too surely can MSPs.
Douglas Clark:
Yes they do all benefit equally... but imagine if they didn't do it?
I dunno about the Queen thing. I expect you would get a very charming letter in return telling you that it was not their practice to divulge affairs relating to Her Majesty's financial affairs.
Jeff:
I accept it is a difficult one and I certainly see Douglas's argument (and yours) about whether things are expensive or not has no real relevence when it comes to whether or not they should be claimed for.
I do think that sitting members benefit from their participation (or rather would suffer from non-participation), but I accept that it's spread over all the parties.... GRRRR I don't know the answer. My gut feeling is that they should buy their own...
I did some research and I found that my MSP pays for her own wreath, and so does the neighbouring ward's MSP.
I'm not 'enjoying being outraged for outrage's sake', and think that's quite unfair Jeff.
This is all a matter of principle and morales, not cost. What next will MSP's be permitted to claim? I thought the Scottish government were doing their best to be honest and honourable.
None of the military who lay wreaths in this country can claim them on expenses, even although they are on behalf of their regiment and not personal. Only the Queen and the Chief of Staff receive a wreath courtesy of the British Legion to lay at the Cenotaph. If the British Legion thought MSPs should have a wreath gratis then they would have offered long before now.
What makes MSPs any better than military officers who are honouring their colleagues? And of course many military officers aren't paid as high a salary as an MSP.
What's £100 for a few wreaths out of a basic salary of £54,000 when we have penniless old veterans who can hardly afford a poppy, yet they wouldn't allow anyone to buy a wreath for them believe me and they don't turn up to 'seen'.
As for MSPs not attending, that may not be a bad idea. I go to a ceremony each year where there is little space round the memorial and it's only the 'great and good' who are permitted to be within the small area. Every year, I see a few infirm, proud men in their blazers adorned with shining medals, having to stand way over on the pavement just because politicians and the so-called elite want to lay their wreaths.
To be fair, I think councillors charge wreaths to expenses too.
This should come off the statute books, it has no place in the government of an independent Scotland.
Subrosa,
I really don't see what the problem is. Isn't the objection at taxpayer money being spent on wreaths worse than MSPs not paying for them? £16 split across 5m people really isn't much. Why do you object to paying for our MSPs representing us at these ceremonies?
These wreaths are from MSPs who are representing the parliament, the wreaths have the Scottish Parliament logo on them. MSPs aren't nipping down to Sainsbury's to pick one up on their lunch break.
So it makes no difference if non-MSPs can't claim wreaths back on expenses, that is their choice. Emotionally-laden talk of "military personnel" unnecessarily muddies the issue.
And the wreaths are not free! You're suggesting that MSPs are in the same boat as the Queen which is nonsense. The money is still going to where it should be going, it's just that taxpayers are paying for it.
You seem so hung up on how little it is out of an MSP's pay packet to pay for these wreaths. Not only are their salaries beside the point, it smacks of a certain jealousy I'm afraid to say.
If a Scottish parliament representative lays a Scottish Parliament wreath then it's perfectly fair for the cost to come out of a Scottish Parliament budget. And that cost would be a drop in the ocean. The Parliament spends over £400k getting its windows washed alone. Think on that and compare it to these £16s you're getting so excited about.
Also, I'm amazed that we can sink billions into banks and you are raising concerns about a few wreaths being laid by our representatives. Who cares! It's a tiny, tiny, tiny amount of money that is free of any scandal whatsoever. Look at the bigger picture!
(Of course, given this silly hullaballo I doubt any MSP will claim for a wreath this year so the discussion is something of a moot point.)
PS Councils buy the wreaths and then given them to councillors for nothing so councillors do not charge such costs on expenses but you're on the right track that it's a similar situation to MSPs.
By the way Subrosa, having read the comments on your own blog, if you are suggesting (which I think you are) that MSPs shouldn't attend such services then I agree with you.
I've always found it rather hollow and empty to have politicians at such occasions if there is no real direct link to whatever conflict they are commemorating.
However, if MSPs are welcome and wanted by whoever is conducting the service then they should of course be there.
There are many commendable arguments here about this, but as I have blogged myself, I disagree with Jeff.
When I was a Parish Councillor down South, I laid a wreath every year in my ward and at the main service in Dartford, but never claimed.
I see it is a personal choice not a duty, not something listed on a job description or what is expected.
I believe comparing a Cllr or elected politician to the Queen is irrelevant, but apparently the Royal Family do pay for their wreaths, what pot of money it comes out if is probably another discussion but......
The glaring difference there Andrew is that you were laying a wreath as an individual for your own personal reasons. A political representative does not usually attend such services in such a capacity. Indeed, given that the Scottish Parliament logo is on such wreaths, it would be unfortunate if MSPs felt the show of support was coming from them alone.
Tris they do not benefit in the public eye. As I said they do not represent themselves, they attend as representatives of the Scottish Parliament. I very much doubt if anybody has ever voted for a politician on the basis that they attended a wreath laying ceremony. People understand perfectly well that they are there in a ceremonial capacity.
This would not even be an issue were it not for a hysterical and ill-informed press campaign directed at MSPs on the back of the MPs expenses scandal.
It is really quite pathetic and MSPs and the Scottish Parliament as a whole should not feel under any obligation to dance to their tune.
I think Indy, it is more the effect that their non-appearance might have on voters. Sorry, I'm a bit cynical, but MPs (and I mean by that members of parliaments, whichever ones)who never go to church, turn out dressed up to the nines and stand in the cold and the rain, and lay a wreath. If they didn't it would be noted and I can assure you, because I've talked to people over since this theme started, and older people have told me they would not vote for someone who didn't turn up at these events.
I'm not suggesting that in every case that is the only reason. I'm suggesting that it affects a lot of older people, who vote. Look at what happened to Nigel Griffiths' popularity when he showed such disrespect on Remebrance Sunday!
I note Subrosa says that the wreaths are provided for the Queen. I'm sure that Queen, as one of the richest people in the country, gives a private donation for it. I trust that the Chief of Staff does too.
Jeff if you are now arguing that the Scottish Parliament logo makes it a legitimate expense. Then every Boy's Brigade Compnay would be claiming it off the Battalion Office, every Scout Troop off the Chief Scout and as for British Legion Clubs well that really is a circular argument.
Not one of the other community representatives (apart from maybe the councillors) seems able to claim it on some expenses count. Why then should the MSPs be above everyone else as claim it as a occupational expense. It should be like the swearing in ceremony a matter of conscious whether it is done as a oath on a bible or an affirmation.
Yes it is a personal choice, many who have lost love ones in the conflicts still make that personal choice out of their meagre incomes, but MSPs are seeing it as a de facto right to claim. I hope that many even though the option is there will not do so.
Stephen,
I am not arguing that, your point is completely spurious. I am arguing simply that the fact that MSPs lay wreaths with Parliament logos on them is a good indication that they are there in an official capacity and not in a personal capacity.
The central Boys Brigade Group (whoever they are) can decide for themselves whether poppies and/or wreaths should be paid for individually or centrally. That's their decision. Once again, the Scottish Parliament aren't getting these wreaths for free. You do realise this pretty much an argument about accountancy?
It's quite simple. You buy a poppy for your lapel, you pay for it yourself. You lay a wreath as part of your job, you can claim it back on expenses like every other cost.
I note once again that those against the SPCB's decision resort to emotion-laden language to try to force their point.
"many who have lost loved ones", as sad as their situation may be, have nothing to do with it.
Stephen I think you are talking mince. I don't believe that individual boy scouts are required to pay for a wreath personally. I don't believe that any individual laying a wreath on behalf of any organisation is required to pay for it personally - it is paid for by the organisation they represent whether that is the boy scouts or the Scottish Parliament.
A neighbour of mine for many years laid a wreath at Central Station on behalf of his trade union in memory of all the railwaymen and women who lost their lives in WW2. He never had to pay for the wreath - it was supplied by the trade union.
Further to that I read on Stephen's blog "For years part of my subs as a boy and officer went towards that wreath laid for the fallen of 4th Bangor Company."
So you did not personally pay for that wreath that you laid, it was paid for by the organisation that you represented, as is the usual custom.
You paid subs to support the organisation - just as we all pay subs (or taxes) to support the Scottish Parliament and of course MSPs pay taxes too.
Case closed I think.
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