The Financial Times has raised the fascinating (if somewhat terrifying) prospect of the Tories beating the SNP into second place in the upcoming election. I know regular commenter Dubbieside is fiercely disbelieving of such a scenario, and he may well be right to dismiss it out of hand, but I shall persevere nonetheless in my entertaining of the prospect.
In the 2001 and 2005 General Elections the SNP beat the Tories by 3.8% and 1.9% of the vote respectively, slender margins in anyone’s book. It would be a reasonable opening expectation to assume that a similar margin would hold for 2010. Indeed, if we were to use the trend for these figures, the expectation would be that the SNP and the Tories would be in a dead heat for second place on 15.3%. That suggestion may raise red hot fury with SNP activists but you can’t argue with cold, hard statistics I’m afraid.
So what has come to pass since those days? Well, the SNP, with Alex Salmond back at the helm, has swept to power at Holyrood and is making a more than satisfactory job of running the country as most, many of them grudgingly, would surely agree. The party dominates the headlines, not always for the better, but everyone is talking about them and most Scottish voters would have to at least consider giving them their vote which may not necessarily have been the case back in ’05. On policy issues, the SNP has saved local hospitals, abolished bridge tolls, scrapped prescription fees, moved away from the detested PFI and ended tuition costs at universities. Solid delivery of popular policies which saw the opposition on the ropes for years.
On the back of these successes and because the SNP has streaked out ahead of the Tories in the Scottish Parliament elections (beating them in 2007 by a margin of 17.2% in the regional vote), there seems to be an assumption that they will do precisely the same thing in May 2010.
However, one cannot simply focus on the strides made by one side of the divide without considering the other.
David Cameron’s Conservatives are, on the face of it, a different breed entirely to Michael Howard’s. The main themes of the 2005 election were immigration and the Iraq War, not policies that would endear the Scottish public to the Tories. The issues today are reducing spending, localising schools (albeit a devolved policy) and funding soldiers in Afghanistan more adequately. Add to this that 5 more years have passed since the electorally-toxic Poll Tax and the Tories are, in Scots’ minds, more worthy of a vote this time around. The 20% barrier may well be broken for the first time since, well, a very long time.
It is difficult to accept, but the SNP is dismissed in many Scottish minds as a bit-part player in Westminster elections in the same way as the Tories are dismissed in Holyrood elections, given the unlikelihood of either party forming any part of the Government in the respective Parliaments.
Given how possible (and still just about probable) it is that Cameron will be the next Prime Minister, Tory voters have much more of a motivating factor to get out there and vote. The SNP, arguably, will be just as motivated as 2005 given the ceiling limit on how successful they can be in such elections.
So what do the polls say? Well, precious little I’m afraid. Last weekend’s Sunday Times poll had the Tories ahead of the SNP by 4% but with a paltry sample size of 139. The Scottish slice of the Sun poll a few weeks ago had the SNP and the Tories neck-and-neck but the supposed sample size of 500+ has been thoroughly rubbished by those of an SNP bent. I certainly haven’t found any detail to support this supposed data.
Will the Tories overhaul the SNP at the next election? It’s very unlikely but with the SNP’s charge that Prime Minister Cameron would have no mandate north of the border ruined if they do, it is imperative for the Nationalists that they don’t.
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24 comments:
On paper, the tories could take several seats with a very minor swing.
Quite how it pans out will be interesting on the day and perhaps even instructive for the future.
Best
Jim
I don't see how the Tories beating the SNP would "ruin" the charge that Cameron had no mandate to run a country which had given almost twice as much support to another party as to his.
The problem reamins - and I am sick of saying this - the use of sub-samples of UK polls to gauge opinion Scotland.
Another YouGov subsample at the weekend put the Tories ahead of the SNP, yet a Comres subsample the previous day had the SNP 7% in front of Labour, never mind the Tories.
And the size of the sub-sample is totally irrelevant to its validity.
The issue is that the weighting of the poll is done on a UK basis - ie to reflect a 3 party system.
If you look at the 'political identification' question in the YouGov poll, 73 out of the original sample claimed to identify with 'Others'. When the sample was weighted, this number was almost halved to 44. Therefore the weight of the opinion of anyone who doesn't identify with one of the 3 big UK parties is automatically halved.
While this might be valid to account for a squeeze effect on Green, UKIP et al come polling day, can anyone really sensibly argue that the party of government in Scotland will be squeezed to the same extent.
Even in the SNP bad old days of the early noughties, their vote at Westminster was never came anywhere close to falling to half of its vote at the previous Scottish Elections.
I fully expect the SNP to comfortably beat the Tories in terms of the number of votes but I am not yet willing to call on who will take the most votes between SNP and Labour.
I am pretty sure Labour will have the most seats, I am equally sure that the SNP will pick up a number of seats from Labour and LibDems and I am equally sure that the SNP will be hammered in some seats, particularly in the West of Scotland.
This election will throw up many results that bear no relation to any notional Uniform National Swing. So, even if we had regular, reliable polling information for Scotland, I'm not sure it would tell us a great deal about the final distribution of seats.
Jeff
"I know regular commenter Dubbieside is fiercely disbelieving of such a scenario"
No Jeff what I am fiercely disbelieving about is rigged polls, statistical invalid polls that are then presented as full factual polls. Why do we have these polls? Could it be that there is a hidden agenda here.
If you look at two of your headlines,
Scotland - The Battle for Second
YouGov poll dashing SNPs election hopes
If someone like you is taken in by these phony polls what about the punter who only reads the headlines.
As I see it we have two choices, maybe we should all just fold our tent and think ok we are too wee, too stupid etc to govern ourselves or we can point out time after time that these polls are statistically invalid and keep trying to get our message across.
P.S. The last valid poll that I am aware of November 2009 over 1000 respondents, had the SNP ahead at Westminster and both Holyrood options. Lets wait for more proper polls before we go slitting a wrist.
Jeff I think your extrapolation of a downward trend based on the 2001 and 2005 is flawed.
if you look at the SNP votes in other elections
Scottish Parliament
1999 - 28.74%
2003 - 23.8%
2007 - 32.9%
Euro Elections
1999 - 27.2%
2004 - 19.67%
2009 - 29.1%
What this says to me is the SNP vote dipped across the board in the mid naughties while the same analysis sees the tories from 20% to 17% to 16% in Euro elections nad hardly moved in Scottish parliament elections getting,
15.56% then 16.6% followed by
16.6% in 2007.
This would suggest an increased gap between SNP and Tory in 2010 rather than a closing of the gap
Dubbieside, I wasn't trying to have a go, just letting you get a defence in early. Apologies if I misrepresented you.
I can assure that my thinking that the SNP's showing will be much closer to the Tories than Labour stems from considerably more than poll subsamples. It's my honest view and if I was to put up anything else then I'd be no better than the propagandists that you so detest.
Anon, you seem to be sickening yourself unnecessarily. As is clear in the post, my suggestion that 2nd spot does not hinge upon recent polling. Indeed it's quite clear from my brief chat on them that the last few polls leave a lot to be desired.
The answer, of course is that we don't know. There are so few proper Scottish polls and there are clear problems with the different methodologies - producing widely variant figures.
TNS/System 3 uses face to face polling and that is known to exaggerate the vote for what are perceived to be "major" parties.
YouGov weights Scotland by party on a UK basis, and uses GB newspaper readership as a factor - which is very different here. They also don't take into account certainty to vote. Most polls indicate Tories doing better among the young - who have never known anything else than Labour running the UK - but fewer of them vote.
Ipsos Mori polls show a much higher level of SNP support - in their last poll in November, outpolling Labour.
Angus Reid have still to do a Scottish poll. They do weight Scotland by previous voting differently from the UK and have agreed to relook at weighting by GB paper readership.
Euan, while I agree that an SNP result of 15.3% is extremely unlikely I don't think you can go down the Lib Dem path of comparisons with other elections, for reasons mentioned in the post.
I agree there was a dip in the mid noughties but I was clear that I was setting an 'original' expectation and not my final one.
Speaking of which, I reckon the SNP will beat the Tories by about 5% with Labour way out in front. Wish it was different but that's the way I see it.
Hi Jeff,
I was more comparing trends than the results them themselves, I think the tories might see a little reversal of their downward trend.
SNP will be up on 2005 but cant see it being the 32% of 2007.
Reckon the real loosers will be the Lib Dems, the 2005 election on top of Iraq and the "real alternative" campaign worked well for them. Expect to see their vote disappear like snow off a dyke.
Hi Jeff,
your analysis may use info other than these rogue polls but you wouldn't even be thinking about this possibility if all those polls were showing the SNP clearly ahead of the Tories.
I guess the danger here is of creating a self-fulfilling prophecy. Since the newspapers and (usually!) erudite blogs are reporting that Labour are miles ahead in the polls, with the resurgent Tories set to push past the SNP, in the readers' minds (I make an obvious exception for the Daily Record here) this becomes the expectation. After all, opinion polls and newspapers generally get things about right, don't they? So they vote according to the expectation. It's another way of reinforcing the Tory/Labour alternating hegemony.
On the subject of opinion polls....
oldnat: "major" parties are a "major" pain.
forfar loon
Thanks for the links. My comment re TNS however, was deliberate. In 2007, the SNP were seen as being a "major" party - and were allocated too high a share by TNS!
How many of you who post on this site actually canvass and speak to the voters?
Jeff
No apology needed. What is interesting though is the newspaper headlines generated by these small polls. Even though the poll from Nov 2009 is more statistically valid, if a bit out of date, the YouGov Feb poll generated about ten times the headlines. I wonder why that was?
forfar-loon
I know your bit on opinion polls was from "Newsarse" and is satire, I am wondering though if this could be another case where if people stop believing what is reported in polls, or start to question the validity of how these polls reach their conclusion, the polls stop having any meaning in the mind of the general public.
OldNat
Did UK polling report ever get an answer from YouGov about how they collected the 500+ respondents for the poll in The Sun.
I think the Conservatives are going to shoot themselves in the foot with all this talk of the SNP not being relevant to Westminster.
The Nats could really hurt the Tories by throwing their own words back at them:
If the largest political party in Scotland is irrelevant to the UK government, then isn't the UK government becoming irrelevant to Scotland?
EuanF:
"I was more comparing trends than the results them themselves"
Anon:
"you wouldn't even be thinking about this possibility if all those polls were showing the SNP clearly ahead of the Tories"
Dubbieside:
"Even though the poll from Nov 2009 is more statistically valid, if a bit out of date, the YouGov Feb poll generated about ten times the headlines. I wonder why that was?"
Absolutely fair comments and I have no response, even Devil advocate style.
I'm not being pessimistic with a view to not being disappointed later on but perhaps I was premature in rewarding the Tories potential parity with Team SNP before they deserved it.
Forfar-loon,
I don't believe voters are led by polls, quite the opposite infact. Maybe it's my slightly twisted mindset but the SNP being down in the polls would make me more likely to vote for them rather than less.
And I don't think I'm alone as the SNP held back very positive polling results in the week up to the election as a decision was taken that it might harm getting the vote out.
Jeff
A couple of points.
Firstly, your assertion that the SNP are battling it out with the Tories for second suggests politics in Scotland has not been changed dramatically in the last few years. Labour would even concede that fact. And it's Labour that the SNP must take seats from, and if not in Glasgow, then in Aberdeen, Dundee, Fife and Edinburgh. Labour crying wolf about GARL has certainly served to highlight it's regular Glasgow bias, and you can bet that it will cross a few minds in the East of Scotland, perhaps more than in 2005, when it comes to polling day.
Secondly, even if they were neck and neck, the placement of votes is so crucial. The Lib Dems, who champion PR, are strangely quiet about the fact they get a huge proportion of seats compared to their % vote. So the party who targets winnable seats better than their opponents can afford to forget about wasted votes. I believe the Tories have done this better than most.
Some real intelligence on voting intentions in these constituencies would be worth ten times as much as individual sub-samples, added together or not.
Anyway, there could be many weeks before the GE comes about, and Max Clifford could yet have a hand in de-stabilising Mandelson's clever election strategy. I mean, how many people would vote for an alleged bully? Even in Scotland.
As someone who has been out and about around the doors the feeling I get is that the SNP are doing far better than 2005. It is just that the electorate have lost what trust they had with the expenses saga. All politicians are lumped in the same barrel whether innocent or guilty of excessive claims.
The Labour vote is very soft and is by no means in the bag for Brown. The election will be won in the marginals in the Midlands and the South of England and Labour will lose quite a few seats there. Too many people are assuming there will be an even spread of votes throughout and latching too much on opinion polls. Opinion in the Midland the South of England has been going against Labour since 2005 - most the marginals are there and a small swing will see Labour lose. Labour can pile up votes in their heartlands but it will be to no avail.
It will be nice to see the SNP finally come out of the starting blocks on a national level.
IainM
I dont trust opinion polls, certainly not those churned out by an anti scottish press and media.
There is no real evidence to suggest that Scots are ready to vote Tory again! The Tory Party is still in decline in Scotland! It is increasingly decrepit!
I think it will be the Fib Dums who will suffer more at the hands of the Tories! On and I expect the skeletal leech Murphy to lose his seat - he is getting increasingly desperate!
So I expect the Tory Party wil make one or two gains at most. Recent General Elections trends tend to show that not many seats in Scotland will change hands.
Jeff,
I think there is still room for substantial movement in the polls between now and May.
Can I point out a detail that seems to be lost on a lot of folk?
It seems to me that, whilst Labour is doing very badly on a UK wide basis, other than the died in the wool, no-one seems to like Cameron too much either. In England, at least, that gives the possibility for a well placed second party, say the Liberals or the Greens, to pick up votes on the basis of a plague on both your houses.
In Scotland, the obvious alternative to 'more of the same' is not to vote Tory, but to vote SNP. I'm fairly sure Alex Salmond could figure out how to exploit that.
Just saying.
For what it's worth, the detail of the 562 sample size youGov poll is now up
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