Comments on SNP Tactical Voting: Why I joined the Green Party of England & Wales

While I have a great deal of respect for the Green...

2010-08-21T22:50:34.712+01:00

While I have a great deal of respect for the Greens and hope they continue to grow, some things are holding them back from breaking into the mainstream, first and foremost certain scientific policies. I've added a link to a Guardian article which you should have a look at, now you are a member you can help shift them away from these rather 'eccentric' ideas and into reality!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/apr/29/green-party-science

Hi James and Jeff I'm not an ideologist on in...

2010-08-18T01:02:54.619+01:00

Hi James and Jeff

I'm not an ideologist on independence. My desire for independence is rational, based on weighing up the evidence and concluding that Scotland's best chance to achieve optimal living standards is through full control of our affairs.

Others may conclude otherwise. Fair enough. One thing is for sure however, irrationality and inflexibility from people on either side of the debate will only serve to hinder the inhabitants of Scotland.

When did GPEW members suddenly decide they were mo...

2010-08-17T16:44:59.560+01:00

When did GPEW members suddenly decide they were more left wing than SGP??

I think this comes from the English political narrative being so right wing that the GPEW sound left wing, because well, they're the only left wing party.

In Scotland the left is a more crowded affair (SSP, parts of SNP and I would argue Scottish Labour is more left than the main Labour Party). So when the media report on political discussions,, the SGP view often goes unreported.

GPEW more left wing than SGP? Prove it.

Wow, Hamish, where did that come from? What dismis...

2010-08-17T13:34:29.193+01:00

Wow, Hamish, where did that come from? What dismissive remarks?

Independence isn't a big issue for me. That's not "dismissive", just the way it is.

Of course the principle of the right to self-Government applies. I'd be interested to find out where I suggested otherwise...

With you there James. I pretty much switched off t...

2010-08-17T13:21:17.931+01:00

With you there James. I pretty much switched off the substantive independence debate a while ago. It seems to have become a contest for the sake of it, irrespective of what could or could not be achieved with either option.

Incidentally, if you favour independence but don't believe it'll be milk and honey, does that make you more of a water and doughnuts believer?

Also, some SNP types who kindly got in touch given the above news urged me to keep fighting for independence. I was suprised to learn that I was hitherto doing as much!

Jeff, I'm gutted by your dismissive remarks ab...

2010-08-17T13:20:28.237+01:00

Jeff, I'm gutted by your dismissive remarks about Scottish and English independence.

The English were one of the most civilised nations on earth, along with the Chinese and the French.
The Scots were never in that league.

Nonetheless, for better or worse, I am Scottish not English.

What is your problem with accepting the principle enshrined in the United Nations charter that every nation has the right to self-government?

Personally I find the ideologues on both sides of ...

2010-08-17T12:57:45.784+01:00

Personally I find the ideologues on both sides of the independence debate irritating. I do support independence, but then listening to SNP MSPs pretend it'll be milk and honey puts me off. Following which I listen to Cochranite Unionists and I'm back where I started.

Also irritating: neither the SNP nor Lab/Lib/Con ever give a clear sense of what the benefits of their preferred option would be for, y'know, the people of Scotland.

Danny I'm proud to be British too. I just hap...

2010-08-17T08:32:26.146+01:00

Danny

I'm proud to be British too. I just happen to recognise that we don't need to be ruled from London to show solidarity and unity with our brothers and sisters in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

The best vision for Scotland's future is as an equal, internationalist and independent country within an interdependent world. A normal country with the normal powers required to efficiently achieve our potential and tackle poverty whilst playing a peaceful and progressive role in the global community.

That positive vision of hope and aspiration is in my opinion infinitely more attractive and rational than the narrow-minded, myopic and romanticised British nationalistic view propagated by many opponents of Scottish internationalism and national equality.

In face of the inherent weakness and unrelenting negativity of the anti-independence argument, I wouldn't be so sure of the referendum "failing miserably".

I'm proud to be British, lets have a referendu...

2010-08-16T17:00:02.314+01:00

I'm proud to be British, lets have a referendum and watch it fail miserably.

Danny, 15.

Danny, 15. Nothing like letting blind, irrational...

2010-08-16T11:10:34.987+01:00

Danny, 15.

Nothing like letting blind, irrational, backward looking, parochial, narrow-minded British Unionism cloud your judgement!!

The future of Scotland is internationalism and Global Citizenship. Only by embracing a full, progressive roll as an equal independent member of the global community can Scotland achieve that potential.

The Green Party (along with others) recognises that. Thank goodness.

Thanks Natalie, will hopefully make it along. And...

2010-08-15T22:36:39.628+01:00

Thanks Natalie, will hopefully make it along.

And Bloomsbury? Crikey, that didn't take long! I will be Hampstead-based so the other side of Camden I suppose and I'll also be Cornwall-bound for most of the time up to Sept 1st so will, ahem, 'sadly' have to miss out on jumping straight in activity-wise!

Welcome to Camden Green Party. We're very plea...

2010-08-15T21:39:54.096+01:00

Welcome to Camden Green Party. We're very pleased to have you on board!

And looking forward to your new blog.

Our next meeting will be on September 1, if you're able to make it. And don't know which part of Camden you're in, but if you fancy some leafletting in Bloomsbury, we're just finishing it off :-)

Oops!If it was before the election, we must have m...

2010-08-15T20:10:32.567+01:00

Oops!If it was before the election, we must have missed your message because of over work. If after, well, we've been sleeping.

Derek keeps a close eye on politics on-line, in my experience, but your fame is obviously increasing.

Thanks Mike, will try my blogging best. Funnily ...

2010-08-15T19:15:31.009+01:00

Thanks Mike, will try my blogging best.

Funnily enough i'm living in Haringey for the next two weeks and have been for 5 months. I sent a fairly tentative email to Haringey Greens (tentative as I suspected I'd be moving away) but the message must have got lost in the shuffle.

No biggie but it's interesting that 'announcing' a switch to Camden Greens online can lead to more fanfare and even a comment from a Deputy Leader contestant.

Power of new media I suppose!

True that James. I've been tracking the Greens...

2010-08-15T19:11:26.552+01:00

True that James. I've been tracking the Greens progress in advance of next month's Swedish elections quite closely.

Mind you, it's a dangerous assumption to assume that all Green parties are one in the same. It's not like the Scottish National Party and British Narional Party have much, if anything, in common!

Hi Jeff, Welcome to GPEW. I think Derek is right,...

2010-08-15T18:07:09.820+01:00

Hi Jeff,

Welcome to GPEW. I think Derek is right, GPEW is a little to the left of SGP, and has an internal grouping called Green Left.

I hope you continue to blog from Camden, which is a next door London borough to Haringey. And thanks for putting our blog on your feeds.

Mike
Haringey Green Party

Love their environmentalist side, love their socia...

2010-08-15T17:22:22.046+01:00

Love their environmentalist side, love their socialist side, hate their separatist side.

Danny, 15, Stirling.

I think the GPEW is a little to the left of the...

2010-08-15T14:57:25.463+01:00
I think the GPEW is a little to the left of the SGP
{citation required}

Aside from that, welcome to the global Green family. One major advantage for poll- and election-addicts like you and me is that you have a dog in every race. For instance, Australia: will we win our first every GE-constituency there? Will we get the gains required to hold the balance of power in the Senate?

I suppose this was inevitable but I'm still mo...

2010-08-15T12:42:01.666+01:00
I suppose this was inevitable but I'm still more than a little sad that it's finally come to pass.
I think it says alot for you (and especially for us) that your non-nationalist blog was so popular among nationalists.
Independence is the SNP's raison detre after all.

Happy tree-hugging Jeff - you'll be missed. :)

Thanks very much Derek; here's hoping so. And ...

2010-08-15T11:05:14.789+01:00
Thanks very much Derek; here's hoping so. And I didn't realise GEW is more left of GS, I look forward to finding out in what way.

Good luck for the deputy contest. Looks like it's being held in a productive spirit and healthy manner.

Well put Indy and your logic stacks up. I guess al...

2010-08-15T11:02:55.256+01:00
Well put Indy and your logic stacks up. I guess all parties have a time in their history when they must decide if they're going to be a 'renegade' party by trying to pick off a few target seats or whether they are going to advance at a slower rate across a broad base.

I daresay the Greens are having that internal debate just now but you're right insomuch that the latter strategy wouldn't have returned Caroline Lucas which probably would have been a bad move given how great it is to have UK's first Green MP.

So, ok, tactical voting still has a place. I guess for me I'd tend to just vote who I want irrespective of where they might finish, something I might not have done in elections gone by.

It'd be interesting to study if tactical voting is more of a young or older person's game or if there's no difference. No idea who you'd go about finding out though!

"Tactical voting is less attractive as you gr...

2010-08-15T10:44:10.750+01:00
"Tactical voting is less attractive as you grow older I suppose so chances of winning a constituency take a back seat to the principles at stake."

With respect Jeff that is a bit of a nutty thing to say.

Constituency seats get you into government (from an SNP point of view) and gets you into a position to put principles into practice.
Practice is just as important as principle even if it means you have to compromise.

From a Green point of view coming 4th in a lot of seats is not going to make any difference. If I lived in England I would join the Greens to - but I would be arguing very strongly that they should be running targeted campaigns to maximise the vote in key constituencies. Aim to come second, if not first. That is how you can make real political progress and have a chance to influence practice as well as being true to your principles.

welcome on board, I think the GPEW is a little to ...

2010-08-14T23:13:12.000+01:00
welcome on board, I think the GPEW is a little to the left of the SGP, hope you find membership enjoyable and empowering.

Cheers Hamish, it may well be "in some guise&...

2010-08-14T22:53:08.496+01:00
Cheers Hamish, it may well be "in some guise" rather than as now but we'll see.

I don't know what the GPEW policy is on independence and, to be honest, it doesn't hold much interest for me; I didn't think it was a big issue in Scotland and I don't think it's a big issue down here.

The only difference is that in Scotland the issue of independence seems to dominate much of the agenda so a referendum would help nip the issue in the bud and mean Scotland could get on with doing things, be it inside or outside of the UK.

I don't see increased support for English independence taking off any time soon if it means 'UK' influence on the world stage is diminished (as it would be under a split up GB).

Thanks RR, I took extra care to be as logical as p...

2010-08-14T22:48:29.309+01:00
Thanks RR, I took extra care to be as logical as possible with it. Glad the rationale stacks up.

Would only really comment on Scotland and Scottish Politics as the minutiae of Westminster Politics is something I don't understand.

Not sure what's next, we'll see in a week or two but will of course mention any significant changes on here...